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Re: [ccp4bb] problems with map quality, refinement and R/Rfree

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CCP4bb <-- 1999 <-- November 1999 <-- 30 November 1999
Previous message:
Subject: Re: problems with map quality, refinement and R/Rfree
From: Anastassis Perrakis a {- dot -} perrakis {- at -} NKI {- dot -} NL
Date: 2007-10-22
Next message:
Subject: dictionary for DNA in Coot/Refmac
From: Sabine Schneider sabine {- dot -} schneider {- at -} CUP {- dot -} UNI-MUENCHEN {- dot -} DE
Date: 2007-10-22


Subject: Re: problems with map quality, refinement and R/Rfree
From: Eleanor Dodson ccp4 {- at -} YSBL {- dot -} YORK {- dot -} AC {- dot -} UK
Date: 2007-10-22

You must be carefulwith assigning twinning operators in a lower symmetry
than the true one. Some twinning tests look for correlations between
reflections which would be related by the twinning operator.
eg a twinning operator for PG 4 is k,h,-l so the CC between h,k,l, and
k,h,-l is checked.

But if your true point group is 422 then that very operator is a
SYMMETRY equivalent and of course you get near perfect correlation
whether there is twinning or not.
A safer indicattor of twinning is to look at the moments of acentric
reflections - if the 4th moment of E is <<2.0 then you probably dO have
twinning..

SFCHECK and Xtriage certainly use this and if they say there is no
twinning I would be inclined to believe them!

Eleanor

James Holton wrote:
> Merge in the lower symmetry space group you mentioned and refine with
> a twinning operator.
> xtriage can tell you what the twinning operator is and phenix.refine
> can do the twinned refinement.
>
> In my experience, these kinds of stats almost always indicate an
> incorrect symmetry choice somewhere (usually the space group choice,
> but it can be twinning too). In general, it never hurts to re-merge
> your data in P1 and then use PDBSET to expand your model into the P1
> cell. In cases like yours with centering you can use TRACER to tell
> you what operators to use to get to a primitive cell. This should
> never make your Rcryst any worse. If rigid body and/or further
> refinement gives you better stats and significant difference features,
> then you had the wrong symmetry.
>
> -James Holton
> MAD Scientist
>
> Joe Smith wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We have data sets for a protein-RNA complex at 3.2 A resolution. . The
>> data belong to the space group I4122 and contains one molecule of
>> Protein-RNA complex (300AA and 16nt; 66% solvent content) in the asym
>> unit. We have managed to get phases using Se-SAD and the present model
>> contains 60% of the protein atoms (250 residues many of them build as
>> Ala) and almost complete RNA (16nt). We could not locate ~20 % of the
>> residues (present in various loops as well as at N- and C-terminal
>> ends). First 120 residues present at N-terminal end seem to have poor
>> relatively main-chain density and almost no side chain density. RNA
>> and 130 residues present at the C-terminal end have good electron
>> density for main-chain as well as side chain.
>>
>> The solution seems to be correct as molecular replacement trials with
>> this model gave same solution in Phaser, Molrep and AMoRe. Solution
>> seems to be also correct because as expected one RNA strand present in
>> asym unit pairs with another one coming from symmetry related
>> molecule.
>>
>> We have checked data in space group I4122 with CCP4 (SFCHECK,
>> cumulative intensity distribution), Yeates server as well as
>> Phenix.xtriage. In all the cases it indicates no twinning. However if
>> I process the data in lower symmetry space group it does indicate
>> presence of almost perfect twin. We realize that this could be just
>> because of processing data in lower symmetry space group and data in
>> all probability may still be fine.
>>
>> The problem is now with refinement and model building. Refinement with
>> CNS and Refamc gave considerably higher value of R and R free. In
>> CNS1.1, refinement with small changes in the model some time leads to
>> large shift in R and R-free value.
>> Refmac: R=36; Rfree=47
>> CNS1.1: R=40-59; R-free=45-63
>> However in both the cases map looks more or less same (with reasonably
>> good density for the main-chain as well as RNA)
>>
>> I tried refining with phenix.refine and there is some improvement in
>> the R(34%) and Rfree(40%) values. I think may be robust bulk solvent
>> correction incorporated in phenix.refine has helped in this case.
>> However, I still see no improvement in the map quality for the first
>> 120 residues.
>>
>> In the absence of any clear density I am unable to build any further.
>> I feel N-terminal domain is bit flexible and may have overall poor
>> density. I have used Se position as well as predicted secondary
>> structure in assigning the amino acid in the map but due to few breaks
>> in the N-terminal domain as well as poor density I am unable to assign
>> any amino acid into the poly ala main chain.
>>
>> Frankly speaking, I do not know how to proceed further. I welcome any
>> kind of suggestions which could help us in this case.
>>
>> Regards
>> Joe
>>
>
>

CCP4bb navigation

CCP4bb <-- 1999 <-- November 1999 <-- 30 November 1999
Previous message:
Subject: Re: problems with map quality, refinement and R/Rfree
From: Anastassis Perrakis a {- dot -} perrakis {- at -} NKI {- dot -} NL
Date: 2007-10-22
Next message:
Subject: dictionary for DNA in Coot/Refmac
From: Sabine Schneider sabine {- dot -} schneider {- at -} CUP {- dot -} UNI-MUENCHEN {- dot -} DE
Date: 2007-10-22



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